Peter:
[0:00] All right, so today we have a very, very special episode because I'm joined
Peter:
[0:04] by my good mate Ken, who's joining me again from Norway. And this one has completely come about because of a very real and raw moment in the journey of being like an entrepreneur, being on your journey, understanding your spiritual journey and lessons along on that journey, and trying to do everything at the same time, realizing that things don't always work out the way that you want them to. And it was a beautiful post that he put up in the group that we belong to and also on his own personal page. And I couldn't help but see it and go, boom, oh, this is something that we definitely need to talk about. And as he coined the phrase, which I absolutely loved, which is the title of this episode, the mess behind the magic. So, Ken, it's nice to have you back on. And thanks, man, because I know that this is completely unscripted. We are literally just having the conversation. I have nothing prepared here, so we are literally just going to shoot the breeze and see where it takes us. But thanks for joining me, and thanks for coming on and be willing to talk about something that's very real and very vulnerable to so many people and for you for showing up. So thank you.
Ken:
[1:18] Thank you for having me in the first place. I mean, yeah, it's a topic that's, you know, it's hard to talk about for, especially for us guys. I'm just going to bring that up right away because I think, yes, women share a lot more of our feelings. That's just the way it is. And it's probably more accepted. I'm not saying that they won't be looked at a little bit differently as well. Like, you know, when we show emotions, it's looked as a weakness. But I think it's even harder for us, guys, because we are, you know, supposed to, air quotes, to take care of, you know, the family being the leader, you know, it's, yeah, it's just much more pressure on our side. So, if we share, you know, our emotions and how we're struggling, that is definitely considered like, oh, look at this dude, like,
Ken:
[2:14] oh my God, he's crying, like, what's up with that? So, yeah, this was a real, real, real moment.
Peter:
[2:21] It was. Real and raw. Real and raw. Now, just obviously for background and context, I love that you brought that straight away. It is the fact of what I think so many of us do struggle with. And I love this. I love the fact that it's like, here we are too, guys. We're going to talk about needing to fill that very stereotypical male paradigm of we take care of everything. And when we don't, we feel like there's a sense of failure or whatever else. But let's just, like, have a look here because it was. It was a very real post. It was a very real... Confronting moment and it definitely causes people to stop their doom scrolling and, you know, forgetfulness on social media. So, it definitely got people's attention and you've been talking about how many people have reached out and which is beautiful. But in that post, you did, you literally took a photo of yourself, probably just wiped your tears clean and your eyes were still red raw.
Ken:
[3:19] Um and.
Peter:
[3:21] Posting out there so what was this moment about what culminated you to this moment what brought you to this moment and realization.
Ken:
[3:30] Well let me first just say that you know even just taking that picture i was contemplating like do i want to take a picture like oh my god i'm sitting here sobbing and like it seems so kind of desperate like seeking that attention like do i really want to do that but in the end I decided to you know what screw it I'm gonna show the real me like that day when I posted that that was a really hard day it's just you know a lot of pressure and what led to that moment I you know it's you know financial pressure not being able to maybe you know create the business that you always wanted and still facing the struggles it you know, being an entrepreneur, it's a lot of ups, downs.
Ken:
[4:19] It's not a straight line by any means at all. Those of you who are entrepreneurs, you probably know this, but it was just too much at that point. Like, sure, you know, I've had ups and downs before. I've had so-called breakdowns, you know, just thinking of like, why is this happening to me? Why can't I get a break? All those kind of things. But that day, it was just, I think, yeah, I never felt like the way I did that day because it was really, I felt the down in my gut, like this pain. So obviously that was nervous system just saying, you know, whoa, this is now you're really feeling it. So it's just a different feeling and just really, yeah, it was hard, but it was a lot about the financial aspect of it, not being able to, you know, provide and, you know, falling back on bills and stuff like that. But, you know, it's hard when you really feel like you're trying your best and you're really showing up and you know that you can help people and you know you have the offers to help people. But still feeling like, why can't I get a break? Like, come on, people. Just give me a chance to show you what I'm good for. Right.
Peter:
[5:30] Yeah.
Ken:
[5:30] So, yeah.
Peter:
[5:32] And so it's interesting you talk about how like it really hit you in the gut around this time. And it's interesting, so how would you, like you said, and like I've experienced it too, where, oh, why can't this work? Oh, I'm putting in my best work and all these kind of things. But how would you describe the difference between like the kind of, you know, downers or those little bumps in the road that you've had before or, you know, breakdowns to this one? I know you said it hit you in the gut, but is there anything else there where you can kind of look back on this now and go, why this one really hit you in that spot?
Ken:
[6:15] Hard to say, but yeah, I'm not sure I even can explain it. It's just...
Ken:
[6:22] It just hit really deep this time like like i said you know i experienced ups and downs before and sure you know you've been a little bit sad i guess you can say but this time i was really sulking like really letting it all out like but it could be just a culmination of you know all the work over the years i mean i've been in or build building a business over the 10 plus years and it's been a journey obviously and never feeling like you actually reached that point where you have a successful business but at the same time it's a if you know if I hadn't been on that journey and all the things that happened it wouldn't have led me to this point where I'm at right now where I feel like I've finally found my purpose and you know things are it feels things feels exciting it feels fun it feels easy and that's what it should be and probably a lot of people can relate to that too you know you're changing direction you're changing your niche you're pivoting you're always trying to do new things but nothing really kind of feels right or nothing really sticks so you feel like you're just restarting a lot of times but this time like we talked about in the previous podcast as well like in november of 2024 yeah something changed and i really just found like this is the thing that i'm gonna do and i still feel like it just the same way i did back then.
Ken:
[7:42] But again, you push and you build up momentum, you try so hard and still not getting that traction, in the same way that you want to have it you want it to move faster you want to happen faster but you know that's not always the case and you really try to accept that you know this is the way it is okay the universe is testing me you know constantly is it always testing me please yeah and then you start thinking about oh come on like i i see the signs you give me the signs you know i'm doing all the work i'm pushing myself out of the comfort zone i'm doing everything that possible can but still can't get that break like come on just give me a break but yeah there's a culmination of years of just trying to get it to work but like i said so many times oh i feel i'm so close this time i know it's just right out of the court but it really is though because, january 2024 february 2024 i was ready to just give it all up and just throw in the towels like i'm done you know this is it but instead i decided to you know okay listen easy now don't get dramatic, just put things on pause and i kept one client and did that for you know the next nine months and then suddenly boof you know i had this realization of sales pages that's the that's the place i want to go but so if i throw in the towel obviously things would be a lot different But luckily I didn't. But yeah, crazy journey for sure.
Peter:
[9:11] It is a crazy journey. But what was interesting too is you even said back before you took the photo, but even then you paused. I questioned and doubted whether you should post the photo. When we look at that, what's the reasoning behind stopping yourself from it? Because that's mean, like, let's face it, as we both know, that's just you. It's being real. It's being raw. This is the story. This is the journey. And yet, oh, I'm not sure whether I want to post this. What was going through your mind about that? What was the, like, because, you know, going, you know, now you've got to have also embodied this message of people need to be able to know we've got to talk about this. We've got to talk about when things are hard and be okay to talk about it. But even in the moment, you're still hesitant.
Ken:
[10:01] Still questioning.
Peter:
[10:02] Yeah. So, what was the thought process there? What was like, do I post this? Do I not post this? Because obviously something was calling you, but you just kind of doubted it anyway. So, what was the hesitation?
Ken:
[10:14] Obviously, you know, the fear, fear of judgment of, like, what would people think when they see this? Like, obviously, you don't, you know, we don't want people to comment negative things when you do stuff like that, obviously. Because that's going to affect you. You can have a hundred nice comments and then you get one really negative and then it's going to stick with you, obviously. So, that fear of being so real, so vulnerable. And again, like I said, you know, for us guys showing up with tears on social media publicly, like that could backfire like real fast. So definitely that hesitation of just being judged in a big way, that was, but obviously I didn't post anything. To my personal profile or public profile first i did it within our group that we're in because i know that that was a safe space where i could express how i felt yeah and no one would judge you there but he went beyond what i actually thought would happen so so much love received and people were willing to share their own experience as well which you know this led me down a path of exploring this message a little bit more because clearly it struck a nerve and It's an important message, I think, as well. Not just for men, but for anyone who's an entrepreneur.
Peter:
[11:37] And when you have a look at that, because it clearly did, it was great because there was so much support that was being offered to you. Despite the fear of, you know, judgment. Just out of curiosity, if you're saying, like, you know, you're afraid of negative comments. What kind of negative comment, did you have an idea of, like, possibly what these negative comments might be? Because I know sometimes, especially being in the world that I am in, I am mindful of like I try to minimize the possible pushback on certain things and certain comments. I try to still be mindful and try to be true to myself, but at the same time, I try to navigate it and minimize it. But did you have an idea of what people might be thinking or say? Was there some kind of rhetoric in your mind at the time?
Ken:
[12:24] I can't say that it was, to be honest. It was a scary moment. That's simple as that. But I mean, what could people say? I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. I really didn't have an idea of it. It's just a general fear of anyone just saying something bad about it. I don't know.
Peter:
[12:46] But I love that you're even there. Like, I love that you're going, you know what, in the moment, it's just scary, like, to do this. And I think that pretty much tells us you're not going around posting every week about, hey, look. It's like, you know.
Ken:
[13:02] Hey, I'm trying again.
Peter:
[13:03] Come and help me out, you know. So, it's just, you know, having that big moment. But one of your biggest messages also in that was, again, about needing to normalize the mess behind the magic because there is so much as we see it within, even within groups, within, you know, general social media, some other people that, you know, whether we follow. But it's this beautiful overlay and, you know, exterior of success and,
Peter:
[13:33] you know, happiness and whatever else. But we know and experience so much behind that. And after receiving that support, you're like, we need to normalize that. Like you said, men more particularly. But when you say you want to normalize it, what is it that you would like to see happen? And, you know, because it's like, for you, it might be different for somebody else. But when you're saying, hey, we need to, what do you see for this? And what would you like to see?
Ken:
[14:03] I think just, you know, seeing people post in the group that we're in particular, you know, there's a lot of questions and, you know, people feel this way and blah, blah, blah. But behind that question, there's a lot of, you know, probably fear, anxiety, questioning themselves, not believing in themselves. I mean, there's so much going on behind the strategy or the question that they're asking because they're not figuring things out. So what I would like to see is that people just be a little bit more honest about like, why are we asking this question? Why are we, like, it's not just that question, is it? Like, what's beneath that? Let's go a little bit deeper. I mean, obviously, that sounds like a coaching moment. How do you feel about that? How does that make you feel?
Peter:
[14:53] But it is a coaching moment, but I can see where you're going. It's not just how do you feel about that because now you're asking what's the connection to the feeling. And that is a very deep question. I don't feel like it's asked enough or I don't know whether it's like a double-edged sword in meaning of like, is this the place to go down that path of connecting those dots? Or is this the environment okay to start connecting those dots? You know, it could be a bit of a both. But as you can see, like you said, it's connecting the deeper dots behind it. Yeah. And it's just like, and I think it's a powerful thing to look at that.
Peter:
[15:36] But I also know that it's not something that I encounter a lot. It's something that I encourage a lot with my groups and my retreats and stuff like that, because it's like, let's get to the real core issue.
Ken:
[15:49] Yeah, because the initial comic might be a little bit more... You know happy-go-lucky facade basically yeah instead of actually showing what's really going on behind that question and i mean not everything as we've talked about privately as well like not everything needs to be a coaching woman not everything needs to be a question about how does that make you feel right but in general we can just be a little bit better of acknowledging that you know it's a little bit more than me asking the strategy question there's something else that's going on here that's causing me to ask this and i'm not feeling confident in what i'm doing and i'm not trusting myself like there's there's the root to the whole question really and.
Peter:
[16:32] That's that's a fascinating thing you bring up there too because we know there's strategy we know there's things that we.
Ken:
[16:38] Could put.
Peter:
[16:39] In place but you bring up there going but are you really trusting yourself or you're not trusting yourself in the process and And I suppose that's when you have to reflect and go, you know, if so, why not or those kind of things. But it's a, you know, deeper reflection moment. But, you know, but out of all of this and obviously kind of going through it, you've had some, you know, we've had the private conversation. You've been on the, you know, chatting to a few other people and it's been, you said the response has been beautifully overwhelming for you. So, out of all of this now, like, you know, you're kind of, what are we on now? Like at the time they're just recording day what is it day.
Ken:
[17:18] Three day I think it's actually day four or five maybe right since I posted
Ken:
[17:24] it yeah so this is pretty this.
Peter:
[17:26] Is fresh this is raw.
Ken:
[17:27] It's still fresh but it's been processed obviously but I mean two first days was that was hard like yeah it lasted for at least a couple of days until I actually got into a few conversations with a few people and even, I don't mean yeah even if the first comments that came on the post there's like you know hundreds of comments or and and likes and stuff like that but they don't really sink in it's the real conversations that i have with real people, in that moment that was different that really helped much more than the comments the comments is nice obviously and i do appreciate and i'm so grateful for all the love that i received and for people opening up as well but the fact that people reach out in dms that meant a lot more and the people who actually say hey let's chat let's talk about it i would love to talk to you about this and see if we can work through this like that is quite different to have that real conversation even if it's you know just over the camera not face to face it still helps just to kind of talk about it even if it's so.
Peter:
[18:33] It's interesting you mentioned that too so would you say like, part of the reason of really feeling the breakdown would you say that's also you know contributed by the fact that you might feel somewhat like isolated because I don't want.
Ken:
[18:50] To use the word.
Peter:
[18:50] Lonely but you know how.
Ken:
[18:52] Like on the journey we connect on.
Peter:
[18:54] We connect on groups and we can connect on messages and you know we can dm and stuff but that essence of, genuinely being able to connect and talk would you say that you were feeling a little bit isolated with where you were on your journey because i know like i've got a beautiful loving wife but doesn't always understand the pain or the struggles of going through and building you know a multi-layered online business so it's like sometimes i talk about it sometimes it's like Like, okay, then other times it's like, yeah, and that's the connections, the understanding's not 100% there. So, that means, like, that's where I find it. I find it beneficial to be able to obviously reach out and talk to people who be able to understand on my frequency on that level in that zone. But would you say that it may have been or were you feeling somewhat isolated with everything kind of going through?
Ken:
[19:52] I would definitely say that that's one of the reasons, absolutely. Like I said, I have a wife as well, and as supportive as she is, she will never get it like someone like you or another entrepreneur who's going through the same thing. That's completely different. They will sympathize and they will support you, but it's just not the same. I mean, I love my wife, but yeah, it's different.
Peter:
[20:17] We love our wives, everyone.
Ken:
[20:19] Just to be clear on that.
Peter:
[20:21] We love it. We appreciate it.
Ken:
[20:23] We love our support.
Peter:
[20:26] No, but again, this is a valid point to bring up again, because there are different
Peter:
[20:31] layers, I suppose, of support or different ways to support people. And I think for the journey that we're on, again, it's like, you know, that kind of level of support might be enough in one particular situation. But obviously, where you're facing the real pressure, really feeling like, you know, you're doing the hard yards, you know, you're putting it in, you know, you're setting things up, you're feeling so good, so driven, so focused and clear about where you want to go. And yet the results aren't coming, it can be hard to find a person who can understand and relate that to. And now I'm going to branch out here on another whim.
Ken:
[21:13] Good.
Peter:
[21:14] I know, right? I was like, oh, well, it's coming to me. I'll run with it. Like I said, guys, this is completely unscripted. I've got nothing else in front of me. This is literally just having the conversation.
Peter:
[21:25] But it's also interesting too, I know, for me personally, So, I just wonder whether this is going to relate to you. In those moments of really pushing forward and when there's those so-called blocks or resistance and sometimes just downright no results with, you know, the financials or the success or the outcomes that we're not seeking, I find reaching out and especially the support of my wife is sometimes the hardest place. To go to and seek out that kind of support or whatever else. Now, that could be a deviation. Hey, it could be a coaching moment. I don't know. It could be. It could be. No, but I just feel like is that something there too that in this moment of this particular, did you find that it's like, again, it's an understanding or it's a wavelength? I don't know whether it's because, you know, maybe there's a part of me where I'm like, I don't want to burden her with this, all right? So, again, like I'm literally just leaning into it a little bit. But I do notice that when I've had these moments, it's not, I don't always necessarily seek the support there in my immediate circle. So, is that something that relates to you in this situation?
Ken:
[22:45] I think that's an excellent point, actually. So, not a branch at all, if you ask me. But even, I mean, seeking support from my wife would be... Difficult i guess you could say because again you know she might not understand so why bother right it's no point i suppose we make we make.
Peter:
[23:05] Terrible assumptions um.
Ken:
[23:06] In those moments but that's just that's what we do right that's what we do yeah uh but i think at the same time it's hard to actually reach out to a fellow entrepreneur as well because like you said you don't want to burden them with your yeah your crap so yeah i think okay let it out but yeah no it's i think it's hard just to reach out to people when you're kind of in that vulnerable state and um seeking some kind of support although i am pretty sure like logically you know they would be more than happy to support you and help you through something if you actually ask and say hey i'm struggling like can we chat i'm sure they would you know but still we make up this is that voice in the back of your head like no you shouldn't ask that's you're just going to burden them and you don't want to be that kind of person so i think you raise a good question actually and we really should get better at that like asking for that support it's not a bad thing it's not a weakness, it's actually the opposite if you ask me like it's a strength to actually ask for the support that you need in order to help you and even it could help the other person as well who knows like maybe you can offer something for them as well while you have that conversation so yeah great question yeah.
Peter:
[24:25] It's just a it's always an interesting thing and it's also interesting too because it like we are a part of like these groups and communities specifically designed or Or, you know, let's just say we want to say they are design, but then you can kind of say so-called design because even in that group, like, you know, and other groups I'm part of, I don't always see that vulnerability. So, isn't it interesting? Like, we're meant to have that space too, but you're still hesitant to ask for that help in the environments where we're talking to. Because it's a weird, I think maybe the ego says, don't be that person. Don't be the person who's like, I'm failing and it's crap and I'm just ready to give up whatever it might be. But I don't know.
Peter:
[25:20] It's a real interesting mind aspect that kind of comes from this. And, you know, it's, but now looking at, and now being on this side of it a few days after processing and have these conversations, how are you feeling about it now?
Ken:
[25:36] That's a podcast interview yeah okay double double yeah i mean it feels much better it does you know that the nervous system has regulated itself where we feel good and we created some momentum again obviously and yeah it's a funny thing again because the day before i had that breakdown i had a kind of a moment to stay you know where things were moving along and doing stuff and feeling good about it and then suddenly like the next day I'm crying my ass out but again now I feel good about it so it's it's just so crazy how this journey is such a roller coaster from one day to another like seriously like can we at this you know keep going for a couple weeks and then not have a meltdown like but it is what it is but again I don't think I wonder I wonder though Like, what would happen if I did not share that post? Like, how would I be sitting here five days later?
Peter:
[26:40] That's a good question. Very big question. Well, here's the thing. Who do we know is listening to this?
Ken:
[26:48] Who's not?
Peter:
[26:49] And has been sitting on it for five days, if not longer, going, like, that's very interesting. And if anyone is out there doing that, you've got the goosebumps on that one.
Ken:
[27:00] Seriously, yeah.
Peter:
[27:01] It's like, because, and that's why I wanted to have this. I'm like, we've got to talk about this because this is real. I know that my journey, you know, I've had some amazing ups and I've had some downs and, but it's been interesting like the last couple of years is I found it more, more of a, more of a struggle and finding my own clarity and redefining my purpose. Very, very deep stuff, but it's, and it's, I've always been mindful too, because I didn't want to be, you know, the negative Nancy of being around people. And it's very hard though, but at the same time, I was also going, but this is genuinely where I'm at. I can't, I'm not going to deny the fact, I'm not going to lie. This is just where I'm at. So, it's an interesting thing. And I think it's a very important thing because we don't know where you'd be because the beautiful thing is you did share, but we know there's other people listening to this that might be going, you know, hey, I'm still sitting in it. So, if those people are listening, they're hearing you right now, what's your advice to them?
Ken:
[28:01] Well since you said I could swear I'm gonna say fuck it just share it but you can't go for it it has had up a meaning yeah because that was what I was thinking in that moment when I wanted to take the picture as well like, You know, at the end of it, I was like, fuck it, I'm going to do it. I'm going to share it. And I did. And obviously, it was the best thing that I could have done. So if you're sitting there feeling like, I don't know, should I share this? Yes, you should. Because in the end, it's going to help you release some stuff. And in return you will receive understanding and love and not just the normal like you got this comments or you know people will go a little bit deeper actually and people will actually maybe even share some of their own stuff as well so you know who knows you might help someone by sharing that message instead of holding on to it and i think that's something we can be a lot better on i think you actually mentioned that like how do we how can i help and serve someone today just one person instead of being thinking about myself and how i need a break and move forward and all that but just focusing on how can you help someone and that simple message could be someone getting help from you so yeah and.
Peter:
[29:25] I love that point there where you like your post really did get beautiful responses beyond the normal oh that's good oh congratulations.
Ken:
[29:33] Okay Like.
Peter:
[29:34] Yeah, they're wonderful, but you could tell the quality of not just your posts, but your vulnerability and your share in general. And as you've said multiple times, it's really struck a nerve. And I feel like it was just, you know, by you posting that was almost giving permission to others to recognize and to go, oh, my God, it's okay to feel like this? Is this like, oh, my God, this is like half normal? Like, this is, it's like, because, you know, I'm so frightened by all these wonderful other people and they're doing so well. And I just don't feel like I'm up to their level or I'm not the same as them and, you know, whatever else. And I feel like it's a beautiful thing you gave people, you know, the permission to say that it's okay. And I feel like that's also a beautiful thing where we do by posting it, like you said, you know, you'll be helping others as well.
Ken:
[30:27] Yeah and i think just with you know how social media is today and you know with ai coming more into the picture things the real things like those kind of moments i think they be able to become more and more important over the next year a few years i mean even a few next months probably yeah because people crave that authenticity and that realness and rawness of something like that Instead of the sugar-coated, happy-go-lucky unicorns, rainbows, woo, all this stuff, like, people want it. They want to see the real, real people behind, behind everything. So, yeah.
Peter:
[31:10] Beautiful, man. I love it. And just two things to wrap us up on this. Just, you know, honestly, we could go so much deeper with this and we could ask some deeper questions. It's almost like, you know, I feel like we could almost make a little mini podcast series about these conversations, you know.
Ken:
[31:24] We could probably do that.
Peter:
[31:25] Probably love to do it. Like, you know, just see where it takes us. But the beautiful part is let's have a look at this. So, number one, after going through this and sharing this and having that experience, what's your word of advice right now to someone? Point blank.
Ken:
[31:40] Whatever you're feeling in the moment, just share it as it is, as real and raw as it is. If you're really struggling with something, just share it. Someone might actually reach out to you and say, hey, I'm here. I'm here to help you. I'm here to support you. Most likely, the fear of being judged, it's not real or not as real as we think. And even if you would get a negative feedback on something like that, it's not the end of the world. That's just someone who's projecting their own insecurities on you because they are not at the point where they can share their vulnerability at the same level as you can.
Peter:
[32:20] That's powerful. I love that.
Ken:
[32:23] Yeah.
Peter:
[32:25] We nailed that one. Come on with the good stuff there. Look at that. Same with the best to last. I love it. And that is a very, very powerful point. And you've got to stand in where you are. And I think owning where you're at is so important, whether it be positive or not so positive, you know, we've got to do it. So, and now take us out, like, you've had this. This is a massive breakdown, not easy to acknowledge. You've acknowledged it. So, what's now ahead for Ken after this breakdown and acknowledging and being vulnerable about it?
Ken:
[32:58] Definitely sharing more about this kind of stuff, because obviously this is something people connect with. And I love the connection, but on this topic as well. And, you know, it's not just about the marketing and sales pages and all that stuff. I mean, yes, that's what I teach and what I do, but I love connecting with people. And if this is the way to do it, then I'm more than happy to share more on those kind of things than I have before. So, definitely something I'm exploring a little bit more like how can I embody more of this realness and rawness. And in a way, you know, at least after seeing how people connected with that, I feel a little bit more empowered to do so than I did before. So, yeah, we'll see where it takes us.
Peter:
[33:47] Love that. Being more empowered by the experience rather than giving it away. Yeah. By connecting everyone, I'm just going to, you know, I believe what Ken was hinting at about like, you know, bringing people and connecting with more people in their raw environments, you know, he was, you know, putting some things out there about, you know, treetop cabin retreats, maybe bringing people over Norway, you know, so just if there's something there that, you know, might interest you or if that's something, hey, hit Ken up. He'll help sort you out and bring some connections out for there as well.
Ken:
[34:21] Thank you for promoting me.
Peter:
[34:22] Thank you hey mate like you know i've got the vision i've seen it you've given it to me it's like oh my god so exciting no but mate i just wanted to again thank you so much because it's it's actually a topic it's hard to talk about and you know just really really appreciate you taking the time out and being open to talk about it it's not the easiest like i said i feel like we could probably talk another hour or two on it and go deeper again but you know this is just the introduction and letting people know that it's okay it's okay to be where you're at it's okay to not be okay and it's also okay to talk about it especially for for men as we're talking about because we've got to start breaking that mold a little bit and hopefully with you mate and sharing such a vulnerable post now talking about it we've started that process so thank you so much for making a push and making a change and.
Ken:
[35:16] Thank you for having me on the podcast once again and not to mention the private conversation we had as well. I really appreciate that as well.
Peter:
[35:24] No, you're welcome, mate. Anytime.
